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  • Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
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    1. #16
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      I wouldn't say shit. You want a buy a picture of a horse with wings hell I can make take that.

      People like things for all sorts of reasons, many of which are made up by culture and many of which aren't bad. The two categories are not mutually exclusive. For example, seasonal colors and styles for clothes.

      I'm not sure I see a significant ethical distinction between believing some dude in extradimensional cloudland loves you and controls everything that happens ever versus believing that khaki trousers in november is an atrocious affront to good sensibility. If people never believed stupid shit we'd be a really different species socially, so it seems a little silly to me to worry about it in the first place. Pegasi bebbies? Sure bro, got some right here.



      I guess this is consistent with me being the rare person that goes to church without being religious.
      I understand beliefs as a part of the human condition and I live among those who believe very different things than I do without thinking any part of it is strange or wrong. I do not begrudge beliefs. So exploitation seems to me an overly strong condemnation which is dependent on the idea that some beliefs are just stupid--well some are, but I don't really feel like condemning people for it, and so without that dependency I in turn have a hard time seeing commercial benefit as exploitation.
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    2. #17
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Gotta agree with Momo. Also, I personally wouldn't even call it exploitation.

      I'm minding my own business selling crappy novelty pegasus art, I'm not misrepresenting it, I'm not going out and being predatory looking for kooks to sell it to, the buyer wants it and is in a right state of mind.

      What difference does it make why they want it? One buyer wants it because they think it's cool, another wants it because they believe in magic in their Happy Meal. It's no one's business but their own why they want to buy what they want. But ok, so in this scenario, I find out the guy is an idiot who thinks it's a real picture. My natural reaction would probably be to just give him an "are you fucking serious?" look and say that it's a drawing. And I'd do that purely to maintain my status as not misrepresenting the item, not because I would feel any moral responsibility to hold their hand. They still want to buy it? Sold.

      Alternate scenario: If I owned an electronics store and a "ghost hunter" came in to buy a camera so they can record themselves standing around making dumb noises in an old house, I don't feel it would be my moral responsibility to refuse sale or explain that their hobby is retarded.
       

    3. #18
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      @unoduetre could you clarify what the item for sale is
       

    4. #19

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      @Banri

      The photo is just an example of a more general principle we are discussing here.

      The photo is just something you quickly photoshopped or you could also put some props on a horse and make a real photo. It doesn't matter. The point here is that you only advertise it as a "pegasus photo". You don't claim it's a real thing etc. You don't claim anything about it. You just sell it.

      And somehow you know that the person who you're selling it to believes it's a photo of a real pagasus. And you know that this person is not in any kind of unfortunate circumstances, e.g. the person is not mentally ill, is not old, is not a child etc. It's just that this person decided to believe in pagasi.

      So the question is whether it is morally ok or not to exploit the believes of this person e.g. to sell the photo for a huge amount of money, or maybe you as a seller should inform the person that this is not a photo of a real pegasus. Of course there is no right or wrong answer, because everyone has their own moral principles. It's more about finding what different people think.

      As you might've noticed in this thread, different people have different thoughts about this problem. That's why it's interesting.
      Last edited by unoduetre; 10-30-2019 at 08:38 AM.
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    5. #20
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      @unoduetre Personally, I'd inform the buyer the item was custom made
       

    6. #21

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
      Gotta agree with Momo. Also, I personally wouldn't even call it exploitation.

      I'm minding my own business selling crappy novelty pegasus art, I'm not misrepresenting it, I'm not going out and being predatory looking for kooks to sell it to, the buyer wants it and is in a right state of mind.

      What difference does it make why they want it? One buyer wants it because they think it's cool, another wants it because they believe in magic in their Happy Meal. It's no one's business but their own why they want to buy what they want. But ok, so in this scenario, I find out the guy is an idiot who thinks it's a real picture. My natural reaction would probably be to just give him an "are you fucking serious?" look and say that it's a drawing. And I'd do that purely to maintain my status as not misrepresenting the item, not because I would feel any moral responsibility to hold their hand. They still want to buy it? Sold.

      Alternate scenario: If I owned an electronics store and a "ghost hunter" came in to buy a camera so they can record themselves standing around making dumb noises in an old house, I don't feel it would be my moral responsibility to refuse sale or explain that their hobby is retarded.
      @Citizen

      OK, so if I understand you correctly, you would inform the buyer that it's not a photo of a "real" pegasus, right?
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    7. #22

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by Momogari View Post
      I wouldn't say shit. You want a buy a picture of a horse with wings hell I can make take that.

      People like things for all sorts of reasons, many of which are made up by culture and many of which aren't bad. The two categories are not mutually exclusive. For example, seasonal colors and styles for clothes.

      I'm not sure I see a significant ethical distinction between believing some dude in extradimensional cloudland loves you and controls everything that happens ever versus believing that khaki trousers in november is an atrocious affront to good sensibility. If people never believed stupid shit we'd be a really different species socially, so it seems a little silly to me to worry about it in the first place. Pegasi bebbies? Sure bro, got some right here.



      I guess this is consistent with me being the rare person that goes to church without being religious.
      I understand beliefs as a part of the human condition and I live among those who believe very different things than I do without thinking any part of it is strange or wrong. I do not begrudge beliefs. So exploitation seems to me an overly strong condemnation which is dependent on the idea that some beliefs are just stupid--well some are, but I don't really feel like condemning people for it, and so without that dependency I in turn have a hard time seeing commercial benefit as exploitation.
      OK, so you wouldn't inform the person.
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    8. #23

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by Banri View Post
      @unoduetre Personally, I'd inform the buyer the item was custom made
      OK
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    9. #24
      Xabungle in the Jungle
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by unoduetre View Post
      @Citizen

      OK, so if I understand you correctly, you would inform the buyer that it's not a photo of a "real" pegasus, right?
      Yes, because I'm honest about what I sell.
       

    10. #25

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      @Citizen

      OK
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    11. #26
      The infidel is dead
       
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Why is the question 'is it right to intentionally deceive someone for profit' even a moral quandary?


      Yeah I may do it if I felt like it or if it was funny but I'd never kid myself into thinking it was fine to do so.
      "Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight on to the end."

      Earl Douglas Haig, Order to the British Army, 12 April 1918

      So death, the most terrifying of ills, is nothing to us, since so long as we exist, death is not with us; but when death comes, then we do not exist. It does not then concern either the living or the dead, since the former it is not, and the latter are no more.

      Epicurus Letter to Menoeceus


    12. #27
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      ^




      PLASTIC KILLS

    13. #28

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by Moulders View Post
      Why is the question 'is it right to intentionally deceive someone for profit' even a moral quandary?


      Yeah I may do it if I felt like it or if it was funny but I'd never kid myself into thinking it was fine to do so.
      @Moulders

      Oh, I'm surprised by this answer from you. This was unexpected.

      OK, so the decision whether to inform the potential buyer or not would depend on your mood, but even if you didn't do it, you'd still think that not doing it is wrong. Please, correct me, if I'm wrong.
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    14. #29

      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by TrashM View Post
      ^
      What do you mean?
        Spoiler:  


      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)
      Information wants to be free. (Stewart Brand)
      The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. (Noam Chomsky)
      (about neoliberalism) Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless. (Robert W. McChesney)
      Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. (Mikhail Bakunin)
      Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea! Do not think that I am jesting or speaking figuratively when I regard those persons who cling to the Higher, and (because the vast majority belongs under this head) almost the whole world of men, as veritable fools, fools in a madhouse. (Max Stirner)
      No one else can help you discover what you really want and what you really need. You can only discover it yourself. No one else can convince you. You can only convince yourself. No one else can liberate you. You can only liberate yourself. (Who Cares)
      6.373 The world is independent of my will. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
      Principle of tolerance: we are not in the business of setting up prohibitions but of arriving at conventions (…) In logic there are no morals. Everyone is welcome to set up their logic, i.e., their form of language, as they please. If they want to discuss it with us, though, they need to (…) give syntactical specifications rather than philosophical debates. (Rudolf Carnap, slightly modified)




    15. #30
      The infidel is dead
       
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      Re: Is it ok to exploit people who make bad decisions because of their stupid beliefs

      Quote Originally Posted by unoduetre View Post

      Oh, I'm surprised by this answer from you. This was unexpected.

      OK, so the decision whether to inform the potential buyer or not would depend on your mood, but even if you didn't do it, you'd still think that not doing it is wrong. Please, correct me, if I'm wrong.
      Yeah ain't I just full of surprises.

      You are correct in your assessment.

      On the other hand if I claim (explicitly or through deceptive verbiage) such a photograph to be real when I have definitive knowledge to the contrary, then it goes beyond ethics into realms of legality involving trade descriptions and advertising standards.
      "Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight on to the end."

      Earl Douglas Haig, Order to the British Army, 12 April 1918

      So death, the most terrifying of ills, is nothing to us, since so long as we exist, death is not with us; but when death comes, then we do not exist. It does not then concern either the living or the dead, since the former it is not, and the latter are no more.

      Epicurus Letter to Menoeceus


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